With a plethora of sound art and experimental audio production which spans decades, Odette Johnson (a.k.a. Museleon - Artistic Musical Human) uses a combination of field recordings, found sounds, and digital processing to create rich, multi-layered, complex audio art.
Inspired by her work, Lewis Harrower, who graduated from MA Radio at the University of Sunderland earlier this year, took the "Muse" from Museleon. He created a fifteen-minute audio documentary, exploring the world of Museleon and her sound art, giving us insight into her process as a sound artist.
Both Odette and Lewis join Jay in the ArtyParti studio to share their experiences working together; what they learned from their collaborative project, how it informed their own creative practice, and why they're passionate about audio production.
Featuring beautiful, original sonic creations by Odette Johnson, and Lewis Harrower's full 15-minute audio documentary.
Recorded Live: 7th October 2019
Contributors:
Odette Johnson a.k.a. Museleon - Audio Artist
Lewis Harrower - Audio Feautre Producer / MA Radio Graduate
A Jay Sykes Media podcast
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:00:00] I look at the world visually, but at the same time I hear it. It's a sort of a synaesthesia, but it's not. What I've moved more in towards looking at is sound as an art form.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:00:11] I wanted to develop my skills in more experimental and creative radio production. What better way to do it than go to somebody that makes art with sound? And somebody who's creative production skills I admired.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:00:27] I see sound, I think that's about the best way to describe it. I suppose that's why I say that I create like "art", more than "music". It can be quite overwhelming at times...
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:00:36] You're the sort of person that's got bits of information out of me that I would never have said to anybody else, or I don't really discuss.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:00:44] Take that on and make something, and to learn in that way.
Our guests, Odette Johnson (a.k.a. “Museleon”, Audio / Sound Artist) and Lewis Harrower (Audio Features Producer) catch up over a coffee in the University of Sunderland’s Prospect building, ahead of the live ArtyParti broadcast later that morning.
JAY SYKES [00:00:49] This is ArtyParti.
SOUNDS [00:00:51] (THEME BY ODETTE JOHNSON).
JAY SYKES [00:00:51] My name's Jay Sykes and welcome to our party. We share the work of artists and creatives living and working in the North East - whether grassroots, emerging, established, everyone's invited. And together we chat projects and passions, events and exhibitions, artistic practice and advice. Today, if you are able to listen on headphones or stereo speakers, you are in for an absolute treat. I work as a freelance audio producer; that's my world, that's my day to day, my 9 to... Well, my 7 to 11 or so. So it's always a pleasure for me to lead an episode with audio in focus. And I'm really looking forward to today's conversations. Our two guests joining us live in the studio are both united by audio, and specifically by an audio documentary. The subject of that documentary, who is sharing about her process and inspirations - she uses found sound and field recordings, mixing those into beautiful, complex patterns. Please welcome to ArtyParti, Odette Johnson.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:01:54] Good morning, Jay. Good morning, everybody.
JAY SYKES [00:01:56] Good morning.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:01:57] I didn't know why I'm waving. This is a weird thing. But anyway, that's where I'm waving to everybody. There you go.
JAY SYKES [00:02:04] And because this is such an audiophonic experience, you can see her waving too.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:02:07] Oh!
JAY SYKES [00:02:07] Oh...
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:02:09] It's the sound waves.
The three audio producers head to Holmeside Coffee in the Sunderland Museum & Winter Gardens for a debrief and an unwind over coffee, before Lewis gets his train back to Fife. From left to right: Odette Johnson (a.k.a. “Museleon” - Audio / Sound Artist), Lewis Harrower (Audio Features Producer), and ArtyParti’s host and producer Jay Sykes (Freelance Audio Producer, and Academic Tutor at the University of Sunderland).
JAY SYKES [00:02:14] (LAUGHS) I'm so thrilled to have you here.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:02:15] Thank you.
JAY SYKES [00:02:16] We first met at one of the Solo Arts gatherings at Pop Recs.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:02:19] We did, yes. Yes, we did.
JAY SYKES [00:02:21] And then I was I like "I must, must, must, must, must feature this woman's work.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:02:25] Yes, yes. You kept asking me thousands of questions, like you do. And I was bombarded by the Jay Sykes. Yes, from that meeting, we have moved on - new ventures and things for both of us. So, yeah, it's great.
JAY SYKES [00:02:38] You've done so much over the past year.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:02:39] Yes. I finally took the step of creating a Facebook page, (CHUCKLES) finally, for Museleon yesterday. I thought "oh, I'll put a few things up", and then I didn't realise how much I've actually just done, just this year. So, yeah, I think perhaps I'd better take a little bit of a relax (CHUCKLES) for the rest of the year.
JAY SYKES [00:02:59] Sounds like a really good plan to me. Our other guest today is the maker of the documentary about Odette Johnson features in as Museleon. He's recently graduated from the University of Sunderland with a distinction in his Masters in Radio, and he's finding his feet as an audio producer in his home of Fife in Scotland. Live on ArtyParti, meet Lewis Harrower.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:03:21] Hooray!
LEWIS HARROWER [00:03:22] Hello. That's me, hi. (CHUCKLES) I'm back.
JAY SYKES [00:03:25] It is so lovely to see you again, I've missed you being around the mediaHUB.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:03:28] I've missed being in the studio, and around the university, and the whole place in general.
“Banshee” by Odette Johnson, a.k.a. “Museleon. “And the nee naw nee naw for sirens ends up in my mind as being a screaming banshee, which is something that I've created, which hopefully will be out at some time. So it's looking at the world... I look at it visually.”
JAY SYKES [00:03:33] Has it been a busy year for you as well?
LEWIS HARROWER [00:03:35] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Can you imag... Like, the Masters is incredibly busy, and much more busy than I ever expected it to be. (CHUCKLES) I don't know why I didn't expect a masters to be, like, full on, but it was. (LAUGHS) So feel like the last month has just been nothing, which is weird.
JAY SYKES [00:03:53] And it was a project that you made for your Masters that unites the two of you together, with this audio documentary.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:03:58] Yes.
JAY SYKES [00:03:58] So, please, I'd love to hear more about how the documentary came about.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:04:05] I've always been more interested in creative audio kind of things. Last year, during the summer, you invited both me and Odette here to "Sound Cinema".
JAY SYKES [00:04:15] We called it the [Solo Arts] Audio Cinema.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:04:15] Audio Cinema, not a sound cinema.
JAY SYKES [00:04:21] Well, sound cinema works. It's got a better alliteration, hasn't it?
ODETTE & LEWIS [00:04:24] (LAUGH)
LEWIS HARROWER [00:04:26] And that was where I first heard of you, and your work, and you presenting it with your artwork on screen as well. I'm just like "that's amazing. I would love to, like, do something involving that somewhere, like, even if I just like your music in something, or your art in something." And then the Masters came along. It's like "okay, so, go and create a 14 minute piece of audio." And I'm like, "I would really like to do something about the creative process behind the work, and about the person behind it as well." And that's sort of where I started. So originally it was going to be like a more formal documentary kind of thing, but with creative bits in it. And then as it progressed, it became my recreation of your audio work in documentary form.
JAY SYKES [00:05:16] And your work, Odette, at the heart of this.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:05:18] Hmm, yes.
JAY SYKES [00:05:18] I mean, Lewis alluded to it. It's not just in audio production. It also accompanies visuals as well.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:05:25] Yes, it's the sound. It's the visuals. It's photography. Much of my visual work is based on my own photography. I also do watercolours and things. So it's the whole thing on a subject that I might be interested in. Whatever takes my fancy, to be honest. It can be anything, as you well know, literally anything. So it can be things I see, things I read about.. (CHUCKLES) It's very varied.
JAY SYKES [00:05:52] But at the heart of it are these recordings. Well, the recordings could be of anything, as you say.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:05:58] They are. And sometimes they're not beautiful because they are in a certain format, or they're very scratchy, or they're very low quality. It's trying to see the beauty, for me, in that sound, and what I can do with it. So, you know, you might have something like, I don't know, sandpaper, for example. Some people might think that's a very ugly sound. But then for me, I could hear wasps. It, you know, eventually that made.. I made that the basis of "Nest", about wasps. So that is the basis of those sounds in that - combined with other things, like, that I've done for years, like electronic music and electronic processes. So the whole thing goes together, and then I create the artwork that goes with it. They go together hand-in-hand, really.
JAY SYKES [00:06:48] We've got "Nest" here, actually.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:06:50] Oohhh.
JAY SYKES [00:06:51] And if I just subtly start it playing, as we chat.
SOUNDS [00:06:54] ("NEST" BY ODETTE JOHNSON)
JAY SYKES [00:06:54] So, Lewis, you'll be able to to hear this because you're wearing headphones.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:06:58] I can, yes.
JAY SYKES [00:06:58] Odette, you won't be able to hear this.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:06:58] That's fine.
Sound Artist Odette Johnson shares a deconstruction of her creation of “Nest”, through found sounds and electronic music: “The idea is that the wasp is flying into the nest, and it goes around this very, very complex nest that's been created out of wood pulp that they make. So the sandpaper - the sounds of the mandibles, and the creeping around, and the conversations - that's all sandpaper, that I've messed about with, if you like, in all sorts of ways.”
JAY SYKES [00:07:01] But we can hear now. So, the sound of sand paper...
LEWIS HARROWER [00:07:07] I don't hear sandpaper. (CHUCKLES) I hear wasps. (LAUGHS)
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:07:12] Great. Yeah. So that's like real sound, if you like, a real sound of wasps, flying about - because they made a nest outside my bedroom window through the summer. And that's what instigated this idea. And then..
JAY SYKES [00:07:28] Ooh, there's some other sounds coming in now.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:07:31] Very electronically, computery.
JAY SYKES [00:07:33] And I can hear that "kkkhh, kkkhh".
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:07:39] A little bit, yeah. The idea is that the wasp is flying into the nest, and it goes around this very, very complex nest that's been created out of wood pulp that they make. So the sandpaper - the sounds of the mandibles, and the creeping around, and the conversations - that's all sandpaper, that I've messed about with, if you like, in all sorts of ways. The easiest way to describe it, to explain it, is that people might get it more if I say: If you think of an artist, and they have an easel, and they have their canvas, and that's what you eventually want to create, a painting. And you want to create the painting of a wasp, okay, but you have the colours. So you choose your colours. That's the sound bits that I have. And then you take the sounds and you mix them up. And so blue and yellow will make green. And if you add the white - white noise, or pink noise, or green noise - or change frequencies, or anything like that, or add weird effects to things, you can actually do so much with one tiny bit of sound file. And that's inevitably what I do. I paint with sound. That's how I see it more and more.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:09:03] Yeah. So... (CHUCKLES).
JAY SYKES [00:09:07] Oh, it was wonderful. I mean, I've heard that a few times now, but listening to you (CHUCKLES) share about it...
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:09:12] (LAUGHS).
JAY SYKES [00:09:12] I love the analogy of painting with colours, but in the way that you're exploring sound. It's like you're using different paints.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:09:22] Mmhmm.
JAY SYKES [00:09:22] But the paints are made not of of colour, not of material. Well, they're made of digital.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:09:29] It is. It's digital sound waves. It's digital information, obviously, it is. Through the years, I've developed a weird knack of listening to things like extractor fans. And, you know, nee naw nee naw, like we all do with, you know, you hear from sirens. And the nee naw nee naw for sirens ends up in my mind as being a screaming banshee, which is something that I've created, which hopefully will be out at some time. So it's looking at the world... I look at it visually. I mean, this is what we talked about, wasn't it? We could have talk for ages when you did your piece.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:10:04] Yeah.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:10:04] Because.. I look at the world visually, but at the same time I hear it, I can hear things. It's a sort of a synesthesia, but it's not. It's a strange combination where I can see something and it moves me. And I think "oh, I really want to write something about that". And then I might walk down the road and hear something clang, bang, whatever, and out comes the sound recorder, and I'll try and record it as quickly as possible. Or I use a lot of free sounds that are out there, or other people's sounds - I ask them "oh, you've recorded such and such, do you think I can use that?" And people are very, very generous. And they'll go "yeah, sure, fine." Not really realising what I might do to it at the end, or what it might turn out like. But eventually I create these pictures - and that's what they are to me. It is like being an artist. It is an artist in sound. Yeah, and hopefully people listen to what I've created and will go "oh, yeah, that does sound like a wasp." I mean, hopefully, you know, does sound like the idea of what it is. Yeah.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:11:12] For me as well, like, when I'm listening to the pieces you've made as well, you can hear the picture being created in your mind as well, as it goes along. It develops, and you're sort of "okay, that's that, and that's that"... It's like if you go on YouTube and you can watch, like, an artist pain and it's like sped up, kind of thing, that's what I'm picturing in my mind.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:11:36] That's brilliant. It's also brilliant, though, for me as well if, for example, people have come up to me in the past and have said.. You know, I've written a piece and it might have been about global warming, for example, and somebody said to me, "oh, that piece really moved me, but I didn't see that, I saw..." And it was something completely different. And I think, "fine, that is great". I might think what it might be - in my idea it's going to be whatever it is - but if you imagine it to be something completely different, then at least you're taking something from that piece of art, rather than just leaving it and discarding it and things. At least you've gained something from it. And I think sound can really do that. It's not explored enough, in my view, as an art, as a piece of art in itself. You know, you hear the radio, you get lots of Muzak. You listen to all sorts of podcasts, or whatever it might be. We're surrounded by sound, but we don't really see it as an art form. And that for me is what I've moved more in towards looking at - sound as an art form, and what you can do. That you can put a painting on a wall, and, for me, you can also put a piece of sound art or a sound picture on the wall. That's eventually what I would like to do, is to have my pieces in some format in a gallery where you can go and see my artwork, and also hear the artwork, because they're so integral to each other. (LAUGHS)
LEWIS HARROWER [00:13:06] That would be really, really great. I've actually seen recently, like in a museum, they have a display and it's like a picture of a person. And you can go up to the stand, and there's two, like, a headphone on each side of it. One for one person, one for the other. And they're magnetically stuck to it. And you can take off, and it'll immediately start playing whatever you want to play. I think that would be a really nice thing to have.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:13:30] It is. There is an amazing amount of technology out there that enables you to do that, which maybe somebody might help me with one day, or I might move towards. But that would be fantastic. The idea is to have a show where I could actually put this out there as art. So that would be a big move for me anyway.
JAY SYKES [00:13:49] I definitely hope that's in you in your future, Odette. Then there was someone on ArtyParti two weeks ago called Laura Jones, and she again does art and sound, and sound and art. Her work is currently on exhibition in the National Glass Centre as part of the MA Mini show. She did MA Glass and Ceramics. So she made glass sound waves that are 3-D cut so that they are in the form and the shape of the sounds that she has recorded.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:14:15] Wow.
JAY SYKES [00:14:15] And you can hold them.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:14:17] Wow.
JAY SYKES [00:14:17] So she invites people to put them in their hands.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:14:20] Gosh, that's fantastic. Because that's linked to how I do things where I look at things. I mean, one of the things I've created was "Pictures". I do a lot of things based on bits of art I see. And I haven't seen the MA show at the moment - it's on my list. So you've beaten me to it and everything. But I'll definitely keep an eye out for that one. In the National Glass Centre, a lot of the glass work is very... You do want to touch it, even though you can't and everything.
JAY SYKES [00:14:47] (LAUGHS).
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:14:47] For me, I do, because if I could touch it, I could hear it a bit better. It's a weird thing. But if I touch something, I can actually hear it. So, again, coming back to the sandpaper, or that sound wave that you were talking about, you can actually hear. I can hear all that texture that's on there. And you know what sandpaper sounds like, but what it could actually be created into. And I suppose looking at glass, I love the National Glass Centre. Because I got a lot of the exhibitions, I take photographs, and a lot of it becomes inspiration. So "Pitchers", for example, there was a piece there where there were these glass.. To me they looked like glass pitcher plants. They were pitchers, and they were clear, and they were hanging from the ceiling, and they were filled with water. And I could hear these five pitcher plants trying to entice these little insects into them and everything. And then I created "Pitchers", which is about eight minutes long, where these weird and wonderful glass pitcher plants are in this strange jungle, and I have all these insects. And, "who wins in the end?" basically, using hydrophones. So I used sounds from hydrophones, you know, recording water and making this pitcher, that I imagined this imaginary world. This is the world I live in, folks.
JAY SYKES [00:16:04] (CHUCKLES).
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:16:05] Where it's completely imaginary and in sound. Yes.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:16:09] I love it as well, and I love hearing the "behind the scenes" as well of how you create - listen to some of your other stuff, and I'm like, "I don't know how that one was made." I'm like, "I wish she'd released like a 2 or 3 minute thing just after it just being like, "oh, this is the inspiration for this one." And I'd be like "ah, okay. I didn't see that come in, that would have been a bit..." But again, maybe if you listened to it first, you'd get your own thoughts and things about where it could come from, which is the creative / artistic side. But, at the same time I get that you might not want to be like, "oh, this is where I got it from", then that might change their view on it, I guess.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:16:43] I think you need to keep a little bit of secrecy. Do you know what I mean? A bit of magic about what you do, in a way. You know that a painter will use paint of some nature, a medium, or a sculptor will use some medium. But to know everything of how they created something might somehow break that illusion of being an artist. Cause it's a weirder world that you live in when you're an artist. There is an illusion.. If you say to people, they say, "oh, what do you do?" And you go "well, I'm I'm an artist." And they go "a what?". "An Artist." Oh, and then they go, "oh, okay." And they move away quite quickly (CHUCKLES) because they're not sure how to deal with that. If you say you deal with sound as a piece of art, oh dear, that's like...
LEWIS HARROWER [00:17:31] (SOFT CHUCKLE).
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:17:31] So there's an element that's great in that, an an element that's not great in that. So I suppose your idea is "I like that", but there's a part of me thinks "yeah, that would spoil some of it." Because if I created a piece that was about, I don't know, apples in a bowl, say. You might hear something completely different and think that it was some sort of octopus at the bottom of the sea or, I don't know. As a producer of sound pieces yourself, I don't know how you feel about that - giving the game away sort of thing. (LAUGHS)
LEWIS HARROWER [00:18:04] Because I'm very much involved in the creating side of things, I like to know how things are made, so I draw inspiration from that.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:18:12] Hmmm.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:18:12] And I guess that's partly why I did the documentary feature on you as well - because I wanted to do something a bit more creative. I hadn't done something more experimental up to that point. And I'd see your work as really experimental, and really creative. And I was like, "I want to draw on that and be inspired by that", and use that to advance myself in a way.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:18:32] You have put such a heavy burden on me there, I can say. (LAUGHS)
JAY SYKES [00:18:38] But we all learn from each other, though, as artists, as producers.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:18:41] Yes. Yes, definitely.
JAY SYKES [00:18:41] And just this meeting of both of you at the Solo Arts Audio Cinema event, when you were like, "I must work with Odette, and find out more about Museleon, but behind the scenes... What was it like working with Odette, creating this this piece that we're about to hear?
LEWIS HARROWER [00:18:55] Oh, it was really, really amazing. I brought you in twice to talk. I think maybe like the first one was like an hour, and the second one was an hour and a half.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:19:04] And it could have gone on for hours and hours.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:19:06] I could have gone on for so much longer, but time didn't allow. And I needed to make it 14 minutes. I didn't want to go through 30 hours of stuff just for that.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:19:15] (LAUGHS)
LEWIS HARROWER [00:19:15] But it was really interesting to hear your process, and then to try and find the right bits of that to get across what you do. But I feel like some of the stuff I'm like, "oh, that bit's just for me. I just want to know that. I don't think anybody else would, but I'm really interested in that one piece.".
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:19:32] Mmhmm.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:19:32] So it was about getting the right balance of questions as well. I really wanted to actually, when I was making it, I really wanted to come along with you and watch you make a piece.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:19:41] Mmhmm.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:19:41] But I just I don't think that was possible at the time, because I was really interested just to actually see it happening.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:19:50] It's extremely minimalist. (CHUCKLES)
JAY SYKES [00:19:51] It's you and a computer. (LAUGHS)
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:19:53] It's me and a computer, basically, yes. Yes.
JAY SYKES [00:19:57] But then it takes, I mean, so many, so many hours.. Manipulating these, in the same way that cutting down those [interviews]... I mean you [Lewis] only had two and a half hours [of interview material], but still cutting that down and working it with the 14 minute structure that you had.. Both of these things take time.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:20:14] Mmhmm.
JAY SYKES [00:20:14] And they need, I mean, for the artistic quality, I mean, you really could.. Just sit like we're doing, just sitting in a room, we're recording it. But then your [sound art, Odette] takes so many hours of editing, and decisions, and storytelling, and manipulation. It's incredible.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:20:30] A certain piece that I did recently took me over 80 hours to do over 80.
JAY SYKES [00:20:35] Over 80 hours!
LEWIS HARROWER [00:20:36] Oh my goodness.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:20:36] Over 80 hours.
JAY SYKES [00:20:37] Whoever made you do that, must be the most... (LAUGHS).
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:20:39] I don't know who he might have been, Jay. It was my fault, really, because I got really into it as well. I could have just, I should have just, made ten seconds worth and it probably would've taken me.. A week to do, or something like that. Because you have to source everything, and then they're all at different formats. So formats, for people out there.. It's the difference between watercolour paints, and oil paints, and acrylics, etc., isn't it? Some people use .MP3s, at different format levels as well.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:21:13] Oh no, oh dear.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:21:13] Oh yes. And then there's people who use .AIFs, and then they use .WAVs. I had to get the sounds, and then you have to then make them "equal" in some respects, and get the sound quality up. And some are recorded on their iPhone in the middle of the desert somewhere, and somebody else has recorded it with a super duper top range whatever it might be - with a boom and all that, like you see, with a sound recordist and things. And you have to get some partiy. And then you have to then create something out of it. You know, think about the subject, think about what you're trying to do here. And then it's all the process and editing for me. I dunno about you. Most people say "I like the creation bit, but then the editing part is.. That's really hard." Because one change you make on one thing alters everything else, doesn't it?
LEWIS HARROWER [00:22:01] It can do, yeah. It's really, really difficult. Like the actual cutting down the voices of the bit that I find the hardest part. And then it gets into the bit that I love after that, which is the actual creative process. I go back through it, and sort of figure out "right, how do I make this sound more like what you do?" That was really hard.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:22:20] Yes.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:22:20] But really interesting.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:22:21] Yes.
JAY SYKES [00:22:21] I sort of work similar, but backwards to you.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:22:25] (CHUCKLES)
JAY SYKES [00:22:25] So I will be cutting as I go, and then layering from beginning to end almost chronologically. And I do it that way rather than cutting and then throwing it together.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:22:35] Right.
JAY SYKES [00:22:35] So I love that we all have different processes of documentary features.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:22:40] (CHUCKLES)
JAY SYKES [00:22:40] But I remember watching one person, and they were doing a different voice or a different sound effect on each channel. And I understand the reasons why, because you'll apply effects maybe to that one channel.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:22:52] Mmhmm.
JAY SYKES [00:22:52] But then it was going down. And down and down. And they weren't going back up.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:22:56] Oh gost.
JAY SYKES [00:22:56] So it was like 50 layers. And I'm like, "just move it". (LAUGHS).
LEWIS HARROWER [00:22:59] (CHUCKLES)
JAY SYKES [00:23:00] But it just became this staircase - sorry, this is really technical - but this staircase in the editing system.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:23:08] (LAUGHS) Oh dear. I think it's bad enough if I'm dealing with about twelve tracks.
JAY SYKES [00:23:12] Right?! (LAUGHS)
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:23:12] Twelve actual lines of bits of information, if you like, or 12 colours, and they all mix together hopefully in the overall picture. I mean I have got some they're much more complicated than that - some which have 24 sounds in them, that come in, out, in... So it's like this maze, and you can't get really lost, can't you, in it?
LEWIS HARROWER [00:23:34] I lose pieces of audio if I go past like twelve tracks, like "ohhh". And start hearing things over things, like, "oh, where's that one?".
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:23:40] (LAUGHS)
JAY SYKES [00:23:42] Or when you do an export, so you make the file a "thing", and then you're like, "where does that voice come from?".
LEWIS HARROWER [00:23:44] (LAUGHS).
JAY SYKES [00:23:44] Oh, it's down there! (LAUGHS)
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:23:45] Yes. Oh, that's the worst bit, isn't it? When you think, "yes, I think I've got a nice balance here. I've got a nice balance between the blues and the greens and the yellows." And then a blummin' red comes at you, and you think, "where did that come from?" You know, it's some booming voice that you thought you had right the way down. And you think, "oh, no," so you have to go back again and then re-do it. It's it's a nightmare.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:24:13] It happens far too often for me.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:24:14] (LAUGHS)
JAY SYKES [00:24:17] So in bringing Odette Johnson’s practice to life, we're about to dive into "My Sound World", as it's called. How many hours will this take?
LEWIS HARROWER [00:24:25] Oh, gosh.
JAY SYKES [00:24:26] (LAUGHS)
LEWIS HARROWER [00:24:29] Many.
JAY SYKES [00:24:29] Many.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:24:30] Many. Many hours. I don't know a strict number, but many, many hours.
JAY SYKES [00:24:36] And if you'd like to listen along and have any questions for either Lewis Harrower, the documentary producer, or for Odette Johnson, the sound artist known as Museleon, then please do tweet as in: We are at @ArtyParti. That is @ Arty with a "y", party with an "i". Why I.
SOUNDS [00:24:56] ("MY SOUND WORLD" BY LEWIS HARROWER)
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:38:31] I think I am [mad] anyway! (LAUGHS)
JAY SYKES [00:38:32] (LAUGHS) "My Sound World", a piece created by Lewis Harrower, about Odette Johnson, Sound Artist "Museleon", and they're both with us today. Hello.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:38:40] Hi.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:38:41] Hello, I'm still waving. (CHUCKLES).
LEWIS HARROWER [00:38:43] (LAUGHS) Those sound waves!
JAY SYKES [00:38:45] I love that piece so much. It's such a rich exploration of your process. And this is something that I often don't feel is explored enough, especially in ArtyParti. And I always wish we could dig in so much deeper. So just listening to that, I've loved that. Thank you, both of you, for existing.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:39:03] Thank you.
ODETTE & LEWIS [00:39:03] (LAUGH)
JAY SYKES [00:39:05] For coming together.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:39:06] Oh, fantastic.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:39:07] It's good to get praise, you know?
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:39:09] Yeah, it is occasionally, actually.
JAY SYKES [00:39:12] (LAUGHS).
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:39:12] Yes, it is actually. Most the time I go, "oh, yes, I'm not really bothered about it. I just create things just because I like to create things." But it is quite nice. It is nice and affirming to what you do when somebody turns around and says, "you know, I'm really into in your work, will you chat to me about it?".
LEWIS HARROWER [00:39:28] Mmhmm.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:39:28] Or, "I'm really interested in your work, will you come on the radio show about it?" I'm going, whew, okay, this is new, this is new. Yeah. (CHUCKLES)
JAY SYKES [00:39:36] I'd love to hear about the process of making it - and especially what you've taken away from it in your own creative disciplines.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:39:44] Wow. For me, from this specifically, I wanted to develop my skills in more experimental and creative radio production. And I thought what better way to do it than go to somebody that makes art with sound, and somebody who's creative production skills I admired. And sort of take that on and make something involving that could reflect that, to sort of learn in that way. And I still feel like I've not... I wanted that to be a full representation of your audio creative process. There's nothing in [my audio documentary] that isn't your music, your voice. Everything is you in it. That's why it's like, "this is Museleon, I am Museleon." That's what it says in it.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:40:33] Hmm.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:40:33] And that's what it is. Nothing else in that is anything else. And that's what I wanted it to be. I wanted to be very much a reflection of you. And I've never actually heard from you, like, how much you think that is a reflection of your or not. (LAUGHS)
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:40:51] Well, outside of, I suppose, that the idea of doing a video or something and saying, "well, this is how I do this..." I mean, I was chuffed to bits that, one, that you actually even asked me to start with, because I'm quite reticent, as you know, to sort of come out and say, "well, this is what I do." I just put things out there, and if people are interested, fine. And if they're not interested, well, fine. I mean, that's the attitude I'd had. I still have that attitude. But it is a strange thing to hear yourself, for a start, and it's a really strange thing to talk about yourself. I find it a really strange thing to talk about myself. I don't know, you're the sort of person that sort of got bits of information out of me that I would never have said to anybody else,.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:41:31] (CHUCKLES)
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:41:31] Or I don't really discuss, you know, I don't really discuss about some of the sort of the problems I have. You know, health wise or anything like that, you know, because, well I just don't. Most people just don't, you just get on with it, don't you? And everything. But it made me think more about how art is so important to me, I think, and how vital it is for me to do something. You know, it is a distraction, and it is a way for me to sometimes to, dare I say it? To get through days. It does distract your mind from the other things that are going on and everything. Because you did two versions - you set me like a shorter version.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:42:06] Yeah.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:42:06] Like the sort of mini version of it, a cut down version, to start to see... And I really, really liked that, obviously, because.. That was more "this is how I am, this is what I am, etc." And it was more what I thought you might have produced.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:42:19] Mmhmm. (CHUCKLES)
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:42:19] Not putting you down in any way, if you get my drift, do you know what I mean?
LEWIS HARROWER [00:42:21] Yeah, yeah.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:42:21] And then, when you said, "well I want to do a longer piece and everything, because I've been listening to your work and everything." And I'm thinking, "oh okay, this could be interesting. This could go one way or another." And then you produced something for me that I thought, "wow, this is actually me. This is actually me blebbing on about myself. And I actually sound quite interesting. You made sounds interesting, actually. (LAUGHS).
LEWIS HARROWER [00:42:45] You're very interesting, you did that yourself.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:42:47] I thought "oh, it's great." And I loved the way that, at first when I listened to it, the little things like changed my voice into more childlike, and, at first that took me back and I thought, "oh, hang on. Oh, I'm not.." I wasn't sure at first. But then the more I listened to it, I thought, no, actually, for what you're doing as radio art, that makes sense because it brought it out more. Brought out more what I was saying. You can sort of listen to people talking and everything, and sometimes you just you get the gist of it, but you don't get the whole picture. But when you do other things to it, I suppose it's like sound anyway, for me. You know, when you do more things to that sound, then that becomes something else. And it has greater meaning, or you can put greater meaning on it. And it makes it more interesting for the listener, anyway, than have, you know, two people just chatting on any and everything, you know?
LEWIS HARROWER [00:43:42] (CHUCKLES)
JAY SYKES [00:43:42] (LAUGHS) It has its place.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:43:42] Which is great. Which is what usually get on the radio. No disrespect, if you know what I mean.
JAY SYKES [00:43:48] But because it takes so much time..
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:43:51] Yes.
JAY SYKES [00:43:51] Radio needs to have these fillers.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:43:52] Yes.
JAY SYKES [00:43:52] Such as these longer form chats, and the music programmes.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:43:56] Yeah.
JAY SYKES [00:43:57] Because this kind of work is special, and it needs to be treated as such, within a wider context. Otherwise there'd be no time to fill a whole schedule with this incredible stuff, as much as we'd love it.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:44:11] There are a lot of people creating really fantastic, interesting radio art out there. There's a move forward, we should have a radio station solely, specifically, 24 hours a day, just for radio art. That would be fantastic.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:44:27] Or a week.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:44:28] Or a week, even.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:44:29] That would be interesting.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:44:29] Yes.
JAY SYKES [00:44:30] Well, if ArtyParti isn't behind that... Yes.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:44:33] Well, this is why we mentioned it here and now.
JAY SYKES [00:44:37] (LAUGHS).
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:44:37] Because we thought... (LAUGHS).
JAY SYKES [00:44:40] I'd really like to thank you both for joining me, I really would. It's been a pleasure to have conversation about audio, but also with two hugely interesting people. Thank you.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:44:51] Thank you.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:44:51] Thank you for asking us, yes, dear me.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:44:54] Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:44:55] We could have talked for about another three or four hours, easily.
JAY SYKES [00:45:00] Always. And I find that. And that's my thing when doing audio production.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:45:03] Hmm.
JAY SYKES [00:45:03] It's that, yes, as Lewis is talking about earlier, it takes hours of conversations whittled down to the best moments. For instance, making the BBC Radio 4 piece about [Sunderland-based visual artist] Stephanie Smith last year, Drawing in the Dark, we had about 40 hours of recordings with various people. And.. I love it. I love that editing process. I love that cutting, and that finding of those beautiful things. And in the same way that's your work as well - it's finding those things that, maybe you say "aren't beautiful", but making them so. And using those found sounds and those recordings in such a way to just get us to slow down.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:45:40] Yes. Yes. There is a thing, isn't there? Of slow radio.
JAY SYKES [00:45:43] Mmhmm.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:45:47] For me, if you get it really early enough, and you listen to the birds, that's slow radio, isn't it? Even when you hear old trucks going down the road, that's slow radio to me. So, to me, that's that's what I do - it's creating sound pictures and things. But it is a sort of internal radio for me that's constantly on. (LAUGHS) And then I might do something with it later.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:46:09] I love that description of it. It sounds brilliant. (CHUCKLES) I wish that was in my documentary now.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:46:14] Oh dear.
JAY SYKES [00:46:16] There's always room for more.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:46:16] Well, we'll just have record it again. (LAUGHS) We'll have to do another one, won't we?
LEWIS HARROWER [00:46:19] Oh yeah.
JAY SYKES [00:46:19] (LAUGHS) Actually, I would like to ask what's next for you both. Upcoming projects and things are exploring.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:46:29] Gosh. Well, for me, I am looking into being more of a sound production, documentary production, audio creation person. If anybody knows anything about any jobs out there anywhere, please do get in touch. If you really enjoyed my piece on Museleon, that's the kind of thing I'm into. And that's what I want to be doing.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:46:51] Give this man a job, please.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:46:52] (LAUGHS)
JAY SYKES [00:46:54] If I had a job to give him, I would straight away. Genuinely.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:46:58] (LAUGHS).
JAY SYKES [00:46:58] Genuinely.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:46:58] (LAUGHS).
JAY SYKES [00:46:58] I mean, there's lots of stuff you can come do with me, Lewis.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:47:02] Absolutely, always.
JAY SYKES [00:47:02] If you want just like an occasional coffee.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:47:06] (LAUGHS)
LEWIS HARROWER [00:47:07] Always, Jay, any time.
JAY SYKES [00:47:08] But my role - my world within the arts, and my world within audio production - a lot of it is about applying for bids. And so I'm writing you into something, Odette, that I'm writing you into something Lewis. I'm hoping these things will happen. We'll see. Dot, dot, dot. Question mark.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:47:24] Yes, isn't it always?
JAY SYKES [00:47:24] It's that kind of world. (LAUGHS)
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:47:24] Isn't it always? (LAUGHS)
JAY SYKES [00:47:28] How about you, Odette? Because I know that you're working on a series of 12 soundscapes about mythical creatures.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:47:34] Oh, yes, my mythical creatures. Some of them are out there, you can hear some of them on SoundCloud at the moment. But I've created 12 imaginary creatures. "Wyrm" is the first one, that was loosely based on the "Lambton Wyrm". But more than that. With all the artwork, I'm doing, and hopefully that will all be released at the end of the month. And after that, I've been doing a piece that I'm going to fall back on again, which is based on a poem that was written by a local poet, Ian Horne. He wrote a beautiful poem called "Fish Dance", which is about Barnard Castle. And it was very, very visual, and very sound for me. And it'll be seven pieces based on that. And that's the next thing, I hope to release next spring. Maybe do some things with that and other things to do with St. Bede, I have in mind to do something with. And yes. I'm a self starter.
JAY SYKES [00:48:24] We should mention, actually, we haven't already.. Your website, you can visit, is called "Museleon".
SOUNDS [00:48:33] ("FUGUE FOR OCTOPI" BY MUSELEON)
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:48:33] Yes. Just "Museleon". It's on Wordpress, but you can find it. Yes, I'm there. I'm on Bandcamp. I'm on the usual things that you find sound-y people on. (LAUGHS)
JAY SYKES [00:48:46] And Lewis' work is available on Mixcloud.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:48:47] On Mixcloud, yeah. I think it's under "Haz Radio". So good luck finding that. (CHUCKLES).
JAY SYKES [00:48:54] I'll share them from our account. And also, actually, I've started transcribing these episodes of ArtyParti now, which takes, again, takes hours. So if you're interested in reading along or just reading without listening, (CHUCKLES) then you can find this on www.ArtyParti.com. That's Arty with a "y". Party with an "i".
LEWIS HARROWER [00:49:13] Yay!
JAY SYKES [00:49:13] Why aye.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:49:13] Always get that the wrong way round.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:49:20] (LAUGHS)
JAY SYKES [00:49:25] (LAUGHS) Thank you both so much for being with me today, really.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:49:20] Thank you, it's been great.
JAY SYKES [00:49:22] Love you both, genuinely.
LEWIS HARROWER [00:49:23] Thank you.
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:49:23] Thank you. Yeah, it's been so nice to see you again. (LAUGHS)
LEWIS HARROWER [00:49:28] Yes, it's a pleasure. (CHUCKLES).
ODETTE JOHNSON [00:49:31] Everybody. I'm waving again. Bye! (CHUCKLES).
JAY SYKES [00:49:30] And I'll leave you with the sounds of "Fugue for Octopi", another piece made by Museleon, Odette Johnson. ArtyParti is made possible thanks to support from the Arts Council England and the National Lottery Heritage Fund, through the Unlock strand of Sunderland Culture's Great Place scheme. And also our five generous patron backers who help make the show possible; they are Chantal Herbert, Stephanie Smith, Laura Willis, Jo Howell, and Nicky Kaur. More information about them also at www.ArtyParti.com. Arty with a "y", party with an "i". Why aye.
