As Mackie’s Corner closed for redevelopment as a commercial property, we held a last hurrah with an ArtyParti Celebration; celebrating its use as a pop-up arts exhibition hub, and looking ahead to the future.
Laura Brewis - Creative Producer, Sunderland Culture:
"Sunderland sort of has all the raw ingredients to be an amazing creative city. It needs some help sort of galvanising those things together. Mackie's Corner has been really successful. We've had people through the building. It's made people see what this space could be used for."
Sarah Carr - Manager, Sunderland Heritage Action Zone:
"It's a project that is really driven by a really strong partnership, animating those spaces and just bringing people into historic buildings that would've just been empty until work start in terms of restorations."
Dr. Loes Veldpaus - Senior Research Associate, Newcastle University School of Architecture, Planning & Landscape:
"People are just interested in the exhibition, but actually walking into the building. And it starts a conversation, which I think is an important one to have with people in the neighbourhood and the city, to come together and make this stuff happen."
Our live “Celebration” events are made possible thanks to funding from the Arts Council England & National Lottery Heritage Fund, through the Unlock strand of Sunderland Culture's Great Place scheme.
Recorded Live: 20th September 2019
Contributors:
Dr. Loes Veldpaus - Senior Research Associate, Newcastle University School of Architecture, Planning & Landscape
Laura Brewis - Creative Producer, Artist Development and Creative Industries, Sunderland Culture
Sarah Carr - Manager, Sunderland Heritage Action Zone
Dr. Loes Veldpaus - Senior Research Associate, Newcastle University School of Architecture, Planning & Landscape
Laura Brewis - Creative Producer, Artist Development and Creative Industries, Sunderland Culture
Sarah Carr - Manager, Sunderland Heritage Action Zone
A Jay Sykes Media podcast
We Make Culture’s Founder and Director Laura Brewis, in conversation at the ArtyParti Celebration event. Photograph by Amelia Turner.
LAURA BREWIS [00:00:00] Sunderland sort of has all the raw ingredients to be an amazing creative city. It needs some help sort of galvanising those things together.
SARAH CARR [00:00:06] It's a project that is really driven by a really strong partnership, animating those spaces and just bringing people into historic buildings that would've just been empty until work start in terms of restorations.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:00:18] People are just interested in the exhibition, but actually walking into the building, and then they're like..
LAURA BREWIS [00:00:22] Just been like, "oh!".
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:00:22] "Oh! This is actually.. I've never been in here, this is quite interesting.
SARAH CARR [00:00:25] You know, they're landmark buildings as well, that people have like really personal connections to.
LAURA BREWIS [00:00:29] It's been really successful. We've had people through the building. It's made people see what this space could be used for.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:00:34] And it starts a conversation, which I think is an important one to have with people in the neighbourhood and the city, to come together and make this stuff happen. And know that there are places where you can make this stuff happen.
Sarah Carr shares about the Sunderland Heritage Action Zone at the ArtyParti live Celebration event at Mackie's Corner in Sunderland. Photograph by Amelia Turner.
JAY SYKES [00:00:46] Hello and welcome to ArtyParti, celebrating participatory arts in the North East.
AUDIENCE [00:00:51] (CHEERS AND CLAPPING).
SOUNDS [00:00:51] (THEME TUNE BY MUSELEON)
JAY SYKES [00:00:52] Thank you. My name is Jay Sykes, and welcome to our party. We are a weekly podcast and radio show sharing the work of artists and creatives living and working in the North East. Whether grassroots, emerging, or established - everyone is invited. Tonight, in partnership with Sunderland Culture, we are recording in front of a live audience at Mackie's Corner.
AUDIENCE [00:01:21] (CHEERS).
JAY SYKES [00:01:21] And again, I would like to thank Sunderland Culture. It is because of your support that this evening is possible. So, for the past year, this building that we're recording in, Mackie's Corner - it's been used as a space for artists and creatives to exhibit their work. You might recognise it as the old Sweet Home Alabama building, and soon it will be redeveloped as a commercial property. Our next conversation is not with artists as with the last episode. It's with people who, like with Mackie's Corner, have a connection with the infrastructure and the buildings in this city, and the way that they can be used as spaces. So let's introduce today's guests. First, directly to my left, Dr. Loes Veldpaus, Senior Research Associate at Newcastle University School of Architecture, Planning and Landscape.
AUDIENCE [00:02:12] (CHEERS AND CLAPPING).
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:02:13] (LAUGHS).
The Right Worshipful Mayoress of Sunderland Cllr. Dianne Snowdon, talking with ArtyParti’s Jay Sykes, before recording began at the Celebration event. Photograph by Amelia Turner.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:02:14] Hi.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:02:17] Yeah, literally a week ago. Yeah.
JAY SYKES [00:02:19] If you could give us a bit of a bitesize as to what you've been doing for the past week at the Pop Recs space in Sunderland.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:02:26] Yeah, I work at Newcastle University on a European project which is called Open Heritage, and that project has six case studies all over Europe, of which the Pop Recs buildings on High Street West are one. So that case study, and those buildings, we tried to work together with the Tyne and Wear Building Preservation Trust, who owns the buildings, as well as Pop Recs, to develop a program in that building. So it's a temporary use at the moment. We're finding money to do the buildings up, and to make them open, permanently open, which is what the [Tyne and Wear] Building Preservation Trust is doing. But then from the European project, we are trying to program the space, and have events there. So one of the things we are doing is Heritage Open Days, which was all week, getting people in for events where we're working with a lot of people like Sarah and Laura, who will be introduced later. Having various events, workshops, exhibition, all kinds of things happening in that space to get people in and to show the building.
JAY SYKES [00:03:20] And hopefully as Mackie's Corner closes down as a space for arts to be exhibited, there are other places emerging such as this second Pop Recs space within the city. So it's great to see it already being used for such wonderful programmes. One of those programmes is the Rebel Women of Sunderland, which connects you two directly. So the second guest, hello.
LAURA BREWIS [00:03:41] Hi!
Meanwhile, visitors to the ArtyParti Celebration event were invited to see the final arts exhibition in the Mackie’s Corner gallery space. A collection of work by members of the Sunderland INDIE, celebrating a year of arts exhibitions at Mackie’s Corner. Kath Price's work is in the window in the photo. Photograph by Amelia Turner.
JAY SYKES [00:03:42] The second to join us is Laura Brewis, Creative Producer, Artist Development and Creative Industries, of Sunderland Culture.
AUDIENCE [00:03:49] (CHEERS AND CLAPPING)
LAURA BREWIS [00:03:54] Hi!
JAY SYKES [00:03:54] I probably mention how much gratitude I have to Sunderland Culture too much, but it is directly thanks to you that this very series of ArtyParti live Celebration programmes is possible.
LAURA BREWIS [00:04:05] I mean, it's not my own money.
AUDIENCE [00:04:12] (LAUGHS).
LAURA BREWIS [00:04:12] (LAUGHS) It's from the Arts Council, and National Lottery Heritage Fund.
JAY SYKES [00:04:17] And thank you to our friends at the National Lottery Heritage Fund.
LAURA BREWIS [00:04:22] Thank you to those guys!
JAY SYKES [00:04:23] As part of Sunderland Culture, your role is helping enable creatives and groups in Sunderland to make the best of themselves, and to grow as a city.
Sunderland-based visual artist Stephanie Smith, who supports ArtyParti on Patreon, received her free t-shirt in-front of the audience. Her speech? "Speech." Photograph by Amelia Turner.
LAURA BREWIS [00:04:30] That is right. One of the things that Sunderland Culture has recognised, and this came through the research that was done into the 2021 bid [for U.K. City of Culture 2021] was that Sunderland sort of has all the raw ingredients to be an amazing creative city, and it needs some help galvanising those things together. So, my work has two main strands. One is around skills development - so helping artists develop their practice in the city, to helping develop the skills of organisations within the city which already exist in heritage and culture. And then the other strand of work is around space, of which Mackie's Corner is one of them, which is... Just the fact that Sunderland's city centre has lots of space. Some are in heritage buildings, and some aren't in heritage buildings. And we have lots of creative people who want to use that space, and trying to make the process that matches those two things up a bit easier. So Mackie's Corner is the main example, I suppose, of that in the city.
JAY SYKES [00:05:19] Thank you. Let's dive in with our third member. Sarah Carr, Manager of the Sunderland Heritage Action Zone.
SARAH CARR [00:05:26] Hi!
LAURA BREWIS [00:05:26] (LAUGHS).
AUDIENCE [00:05:26] (APPLAUSE)
SARAH CARR [00:05:30] Yeah, so as Jay said, I manage Sunderland Heritage Action Zone. I don't know how many people have heard of Sunderland Heritage Action Zone. So, it's a five year project, we're currently in Year 3, and it's really trying to breathe new life into what were the historic high streets within Sunderland. So, primarily looking at High Street West, East, Church Street East, 170's obviously on High Street West, and Mackie's Corner is top end of High Street West. So it's a five year long programme, really trying to bring what are listed historic buildings back into use, and using them as a kind of a catalyst to kickstart economic regeneration around the centre of the city; which has obviously gone into decline over recent years, and the retail cores move westwards towards the bridges. That's essentially what I do. And there are obviously links with the Unlock strand, where Unlock, which Laura is working on, is really kind of using the buildings within the HAZ, the [Sunderland] Heritage Action Zone, and helping us to kind of animate those buildings and those spaces.
JAY SYKES [00:06:34] Mietek Padovicz.
ArtyParti's Jay Sykes and Dr. Loes Veldpaus address questions from the audience at our Mackie's Corner Celebration event. Photograph by Amelia Turner.
MIETEK PADOVICZ [00:06:35] So the city of Sunderland has a couple of venues that are fairly well known. Others that have been around for a bit. Legacy has closed, finally - not necessarily a good thing, but it's closed. We've got the museum vaults, which is I think a 60-cap, the Independent, which is probably a little bit bigger. There's a bunch of places around here where we could be having a lot more live music, bigger capacities, and I'm wondering if there's any chance that that's going to happen. I mean, obviously, you have business people have to be involved in that as well. But we need more music here, just like we need it in another town, where also the venues are dying.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:07:13] So, I have to say, I'm from the Netherlands. I came to this country three years ago, and I came to Sunderland six months ago, so I'm not maybe the best person to know the music scene in Sunderland and all the things that are happening. But yeah, I can definitely see that there are a lot of potential spaces in Sunderland that could be different things. Like can be music venues, can be creative spaces, that can be used like not just as a temporary thing, but in the long run and a bit business can be built around it. And I think, of course it's partly austerity and money and problems around like how we fund the arts and creative industries and music and all these kind of things. But it's also a sort of confidence that it can be done, also in Sunderland. And I think there's so many amazing people, and so many amazing ideas, and there is an amazing history to this city, and that industrial part, but many other things as well. So there is all the ingredients, as Laura was saying, but it's now getting people together, the right people together, to make it happen, and do it. Because in a way, yeah, you can wait for a commercial developer to come along and make it happen. But actually, no, it takes a few people to take a risk. But it's scary to take a risk, and you need to be in a position where you can do this. But it would be amazing if people actually, you know, sit up and do it. The [Sunderland City] Council can help, Sunderland Culture can help. We can, you know, whatever we can do to make it possible. But we need a lot of local people to be involved, I think, to make it happen. And there are a lot of local people involved. So I guess maybe it's also a matter of getting those people together and collaborating.
Guests at our Celebration event at Mackie's Corner - including Laura Brewis, Sharon Watson, Jenny Goodman, Kelsey Lynn Mayo, and Kath Price. Photograph by Amelia Turner - here she's played with reflections in a really interesting way.
LAURA BREWIS [00:08:43] As someone who's grown up in Sunderland, I think there's been sort of big shift in the music scene, I think. When I was younger, you could go to pubs underage, basically (LAUGHS) and watch bands. They enforce legality much better now than they did when I was younger. So I think what is recognised in the city is there's perhaps not those spaces for emerging artists and smaller bands to come to the city, or to grow into in the city. There's really exciting things on the horizon with the Fire Station Auditorium and stuff like that, but that will be bigger capacity crowds, you know, it'll be money making venture. So I think we do have to address that emerging mid-scale artists, like, where do those people go? It's Sunderland a city where bands want to come? Independent is amazing, is a great place, but there needs to be more places that nurture that type of artist. And I think Pop Recs do a great job in reasonably small capacity. But I think there is a recognition within the city that more needs to be done to like open up those spaces; whether they're temporary spaces like this. I mean, bands haven't played in here, but potentially there could be places like this where bands do play. They might not be permanent spaces, but, you know, six months or whatever. But I think they does need to be a more permanent, mid-scale solution to what happens.
JAY SYKES [00:10:03] I also wonder whether there's enough infrastructure for recording spaces for musicians. I know Laura, your partner from Field Music, he has a space down in Villiers Street, which is a recording studio, and there's spaces above it. But I don't know of many other places where you can go to, to really create that work.
LAURA BREWIS [00:10:20] I mean, I think there's a big gap in the sort of like talent pipeline, for a want of a better phrase, where young people go to experience music, to try music out, to sort of experiment and song-write and see if it's a thing they want to do. But then, what's the next stage after that? You know, how do you see if that's a career for you? How do you see if that's a thing you want to do on a more professional basis? I think there's a big kind of gap in that talent pipeline in Sunderland. There are spaces, you know, there are recording studios in Sunderland, but lots of people go out of Sunderland to record, and they go to Newcastle because there's more commercial spaces. And I think it's a thing that's getting better, but it needs to be addressed perhaps in a more sort of cohesive way.
SARAH CARR [00:11:06] I'm just going to add to that. I think that needs to be kind of addressed as part of looking at the regeneration of the high street.
LAURA BREWIS [00:11:11] Yeah.
SARAH CARR [00:11:11] Because actually, it isn't just retail. We know that isn't going to be the saviour of the high street now. So it is about trying to have that kind of mix of cultural and creative activities as well, along the high street.
LAURA BREWIS [00:11:23] And I think there's some really, really interesting things going on in this area.
SARAH CARR [00:11:27] Hmmm.
LAURA BREWIS [00:11:27] Around Norfolk Street, and around Villiers Street. There's space that's reasonably cheap that creative people can buy up, where my husband has a recording studio because it's reasonably cheap and he can do stuff to buildings.
JAY SYKES [00:11:40] Where I've just moved into a dingy little room that's got no windows, so I can get a nice recording studio in there.
LAURA BREWIS [00:11:45] And it feels like there is a bit of a groundswell of stuff around this area. You know, there's a long way to go to make it like a creative quarter, or whatever. But it does feel like it's started.
JAY SYKES [00:11:57] It's great to hear that you feel that there's this build up in this city. That very much was the plan of Sunderland Culture, to change the attitude that people have to their city.
LAURA BREWIS [00:12:06] I think this is also around visibility in Sunderland. There is a lot of creative stuff that goes on - there's a lot of studios, there's a lot of recording studios, there's a lot of dance studios, there's a lot of stuff. But it's just not very visible, because a lot of it's in old warehouses, and old townhouses, and, you know, you just can't see it. Which makes then people say there's not much in Sunderland.
SARAH CARR [00:12:28] Hmmm.
LAURA BREWIS [00:12:29] Because it's not very visible. So I think some of the challenge that Sunderland Culture has got is just sort of bringing that out, and making it coherent, and an offer for people. So, all these amazing creative graduates who are coming out of the University [of Sunderland] say "oh, there's opportunities for us here". Or for people who are coming to art later in life to go, "oh, there's actually.. We can have a studio in Sunderland", or "there's a place we can record our music" or whatever - whatever that is. But it's about making it coherent and visible to people.
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:12:58] Talking about visibility, it would be great if places like the [Sunderland Museum and] Winter Gardens, [National] Glass Centre... If there were some way to utilise information boards, because, like you said, we do have a lot going on. We've got studio space, we've got galleries, we've got workshops, and recording studios, and so forth. If there was a central point that you could go to, like, I don't mean to keep throwing out the phrase "an arts centre", where you'd have like an information point, and be able to go "where the dance studios? "I didn't know there was a ceramic studio." I didn't know that there was a couple of iron mongers, and so forth.
LAURA BREWIS [00:13:39] There are, bronze casters. Who knew?!
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:13:42] Well, exactly. I mean, that stuff MBC Ceramics do with the the iron mongering.
LAURA BREWIS [00:13:47] Yeah. Yeah, iron mongering.
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:13:49] Iron mongering, yes.
LAURA BREWIS [00:13:51] Who knew?
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:13:51] Portable iron mongering, it's unbelievable.
LAURA BREWIS [00:13:55] They're everywhere, I know.
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:13:55] So to have somewhere there - is there anything in the pipeline either at the National Glass Centre or at the [Sunderland] Museum where we can have a big information board, and also have someone that then gathers information and keeps that information up to date, about facilities and events and so forth?
LAURA BREWIS [00:14:16] Yo know, that might be me.
SARAH CARR [00:14:19] Yeah.
AUDIENCE [00:14:21] (LAUGHTER).
LAURA BREWIS [00:14:21] So, actually...
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:14:21] You're gonna have to stick a broom up your backside, though, you do so many things.
LAURA BREWIS [00:14:23] (LAUGHTER) I thought you being insulting there, but I think you're being nice.
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:14:25] You-- No, no! You need another you. We need two Lauras.
LAURA BREWIS [00:14:29] Clone me.
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:14:30] Clone you. (LAUGHS)
LAURA BREWIS [00:14:31] So, one of the things that we're just about to do, actually, at Sunderland Culture, is we're gonna launch a bit of a questionnaire to creatives in the city about exactly this. I personally feel, and I think Sunderland Culture probably feel like there isn't that central information point that you'd go to to find out about artist opportunities, about spaces that are available, about commissions that have come up both, in Sunderland and the region. I think we've been a bit cautious about sort of reinventing a thing - because there are lots of online groups, and things that already exist, and I think we've been, like, a little bit cautious about creating a new one. But I think now, after doing this for a year, it sort of doesn't exist. So there's actually an online survey that's going to go out in the next couple of weeks to people like yourselves, artists and creatives, going like, "where are the gaps? Where do you go for these things? What do you feel are missing?" And to create either an online version of a notice board, or a notice board.. Or both of those things, if that's what people feel are missing. But we totally acknowledge that that is a thing, that centralising person or force or whatever that thing is, is kind of missing at the moment - in sort of like scooping up all of those opportunities and making them more visible. So we recognise that, and I think that person is me. So, I'm on it.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:15:51] Very good.
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:15:54] (LAUGHS).
AUDIENCE [00:15:54] (CHEERS AND CLAPPING).
SOUNDS [00:15:54] (THEME TUNE BY MUSELEON)
JAY SYKES [00:16:00] There are five wonderful people who donate generously every single month. One of them is here - Stephanie Smith!
AUDIENCE [00:16:06] (WHOOPING AND CHEERING).
JAY SYKES [00:16:06] And in fact, Stephanie, I'm gonna embarrass you a little bit, because one of the things that you might get if you subscribe to a certain tier of Patreon support.. Steph...
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:16:19] T-shirt!
JAY SYKES [00:16:19] T-shirt!
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:16:19] Get in!
JAY SYKES [00:16:19] So...
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:16:19] I'd forgotten about this!
AUDIENCE [00:16:19] (LAUGHTER)
JAY SYKES [00:16:26] So, you get a car!
LAURA BREWIS [00:16:26] What is happening?
JAY SYKES [00:16:26] And you get a car!
AUDIENCE [00:16:33] (CHEERING AND CLAPPING).
JAY SYKES [00:16:33] Would you like to make a speech?
STEPHANIE SMITH [00:16:38] Speech.
JAY SYKES [00:16:38] (LAUGHS)
LAURA BREWIS [00:16:39] Was that the speech?
JAY SYKES [00:16:39] Steph generously donates six dollars a month to ArtyParti because she believes in the importance of this as a platform for creatives in Sunderland to talk about their work, and to find out about other people. And I am forever indebted to Steph, and the support that she has given ArtParti. It's because of Steph, and four other people like her, that ArtyParti can fund a podcast, feed and reach new growing audiences. It means you can listen to any of our content over the past few months at the touch of a screen, at your fingertips. But Steph, of course, is not alone in this. We are also supported by the generous Patreon backing of Nicky Core, one of the founders of TryLife TV... Joe Howell, who's a photographic artist based in Sunderland... and Laura Willis, who is an audio producer studying media production at the University of Sunderland... If you'd like to join them, help support ArtyParti, please do. You can head to Patreon.com/ArtyParti - and for as little as a single dollar donation, you can help support us; to reach more people, spread the word about projects and events by artists and creatives in the North East, and continue to grow as a platform for sharing important conversations like these. Now, we return back to the recording at Mackie's Corner. Today, Laura Brewis, Sunderland Culture. Sarah Carr, the Sunderland Heritage Action Zone. And from a heritage research project at Newcastle University, Dr. Loes Veldpaus. This is ArtyParti.
JAY SYKES [00:18:14] I'd like to return to a point that we were talking about earlier, Sarah, when you addressed how spaces in Sunderland, or in cities and towns across the U.K., need to realign themselves with how they bring people in.
SARAH CARR [00:18:27] Hmmm.
JAY SYKES [00:18:27] Because of the declining nature of the high street. So I'd love to open up a conversation perhaps about how we see the role of arts within spaces like this, and within town centres and city centres.
SARAH CARR [00:18:40] So, I guess within the [Sunderland] Heritage Action Zone, we've got quite a mix, actually, of uses. So we've got Pop Recs, we've got a kind of a music social enterprise. And then we've had this space as a year-long opportunity for artists. And then Elephant Tea Rooms. So that's within the Heritage Action Zone, so the ground floor of that'll become the local studies library in November.
AUDIENCE [00:18:58] Oooh. Oh wow.
JAY SYKES [00:19:01] November?
SARAH CARR [00:19:01] Yeah.
JAY SYKES [00:19:01] That's a bit... Oh I didn't know it was opening in November!
SARAH CARR [00:19:03] Yeah.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:19:03] Very soon.
JAY SYKES [00:19:03] That's fantastic.
SARAH CARR [00:19:06] So they're doing some kind of emergency kind of repair works to the roof. But then, there'll be kind of restoration works to reinstate the original shopfronts to that building next year. So kind of really mixed uses - so, like, it's a kind of public space, but obviously for the local studies collection there.
JAY SYKES [00:19:21] And I hear a space to store the archive as well, and the sound material that's been collected from...
SARAH CARR [00:19:25] Yeah, so, I think Living History North East would move into that space as well. Yeah, yeah.
LAURA BREWIS [00:19:31] There's also Breeze Creatives going into the Athenaeum.
SARAH CARR [00:19:33] Yes, of course, in the Athenaeum, yeah. So there's a real mix there, actually. And obviously, this building will become more kind of commercially focussed, but within that mix, just those buildings I've mentioned so far, there's kind of like a real variety, really, of uses.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:19:47] Yeah, and I think this is also really necessary, right? So you can't just use the arts and creative industries to programme these buildings and then move on.
SARAH CARR [00:19:56] Hmmm.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:19:56] How do we do this in an ethical way? I understand Sunderland High Street West is not necessarily gentrification about to happen, right? It definitely needs investment, and it definitely needs stuff happening. But at the same time, I don't think that a meanwhile use is... It can be a really good solution in some ways, but it is also important to think about what you use the artists or the heritage or the other users or temporary uses for. Because it's kind of using them to, like, up the value of the land, or to make the building more attractive. You know, if that is very clear to people, and they're happy to be part of that, fine. But I think we need a conversation about how we do this is in a way that suits the city, that everyone feels comfortable with, that is not the sort of like.. Using arts, and then go to the next building, and we can now do a commercial venture here.
KATH PRICE [00:20:48] We were just having a little conversation, and I muttered, "it is potentially exploitative.".
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:20:56] Absolutely.
KATH PRICE [00:20:56] That people should sometimes be paid for their time.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:21:01] No, people should always be paid for their time. (LAUGHS).
KATH PRICE [00:21:04] Artists are rarely paid for their time.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:21:07] Yeah.
KATH PRICE [00:21:07] To be fair.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:21:09] No, and it's important from all sides, right? So, also for us, for example, as universities; when we apply for a project, and we want to work with local artists or we want to work with local creative industries, that needs to be part of the grant we write, that we can pay for these kind of things. And it's part of what we need to do. But it's also part of what the Arts Council or other funders need to do, like make sure that this this happens. The heritage funding, in the same way. There is a big move, also, in heritage funding towards like getting funding for activities, and working with hard to reach audiences, and all this kind of stuff. It's like, yeah, that's all nice, but that needs people who know what they're doing, and we need to pay for those people, and not just for a nice space that, you know, something can happen in.
KATH PRICE [00:21:50] (CLAPS) Yes!
AUDIENCE [00:21:50] (CLAPPING)
JAY SYKES [00:21:56] Anna Glover has a microphone at the moment.
ANNA GLOVER [00:21:57] Yes, you mentioned that you are from The Netherlands. Obviously, you haven't been this country for that long, can you maybe compare with The Netherlands - about their culture, and how they actually are addressing those kind of issues - to England? Or not necessarily compare, but perhaps give us something from your cultural experience, from your home?
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:22:19] (CHUCKLES) In a way, I find it a difficult question because I'm much more involved, to be honest, here in this than I was in the Netherlands. But I think - and this goes back to like just the infrastructure of a welfare state - it's still much stronger in The Netherlands. So that makes some of that stuff more normal. And austerity, and breaking down the welfare state in this country has been radical, and really difficult. And it means that a lot of the work that in The Netherlands is being done by (and it's very normal to be done by) a local authority or a local organisation is done by local people here. Which means, you know, you have a really strong community part of it. And it's really interesting in one way, but it's also very, very easily exploitative and problematic. So I find it really difficult because I can't really compare it. Also because, like, in the last five years it has changed so much here. And I haven't seen the change in The Netherlands, because, I mean, I go back every now and then, but it's not like I'm there to see the real change happening all the time. But yeah, I think it kind of goes to this basic level of, like, how do you fund arts? How do you fund culture? How do you fund the welfare state then? And how do we respond to austerity and cuts to this?
SOUNDS [00:23:33] (IDENT)
JAY SYKES [00:23:36] I will also like to raise at this point, Laura, in your other role, with We Make Culture, which is your own community interest company.
LAURA BREWIS [00:23:43] It is.
JAY SYKES [00:23:43] That you are trying to make experiences - music and arts - accessible for young people in Sunderland through your workshops and programmes.
LAURA BREWIS [00:23:51] Yes. So one of the things that I deal with.. We Make Culture is mainly around music. We run a Young Songwriters group, and a young talent development programme for Young Songwriters, which is about opening up access to music for young people. But I personally feel like being an artist is.. There's a danger of it becoming a middle class profession. Like, there is no access into that unless you've got, I don't know, a partner who can support you, or parents who can support you, or something like that. And I think in someone like Sunderland, it's really, really important that there's support given to give people careers in the arts, and access to those things. So through We Make Culture, we're about to embark on a talent development programme for Young Musicians. But also through Sunderland Culture we've got a programme of internships, which is all around, you know, giving young people - but not always young people, like emerging artists - access to those creative industries positions that are paid. Because so much of the arts is built on free work - whether that's free internships or free work experience or whatever. However, it's couched, it's often built on being able to support yourself while you work for free. And in both of those things that I do, I'm hopefully working against that, and paying people for their time to get some experience, to get a foot in the door.
JAY SYKES [00:25:10] Kelsey Lynn Mayo.
KELSEY LYNN MAYO [00:25:12] Because there almost is an expectation as a young graduate that that is what you're going to have to do. What is it that we can actually do to counter that? Even in my studio, we just had an event and we had young artists there, but like we couldn't even fund them because we weren't even funding ourselves to have it. So what is it we as like starting this new, in the North East, starting this new culture, what can we do to stop this? Like, I know that's like a big question.
LAURA BREWIS [00:25:41] (LAUGHS).
KELSEY LYNN MAYO [00:25:41] But what steps are being made?
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:25:43] I think it's incredibly hard. But also, I think what is really important is "practice what you preach", and awareness. So I've seen too many events where we talk about the role of women in architecture, or how there is a pay gap and we invite a speaker, but then we don't actually pay them properly. Or, you know, it's still, you know, even the events that are about this stuff very often then don't have the practices that come with what we are talking about. The awareness of that happening is important. So if you.. If you can't pay them because you're not even funded yourself and you don't have any money to do anything, be honest about what is going on and how you are doing this, and talk to people about being aware of these situations. So as soon as you're in a situation where you can pay someone, you do. And as soon as you have a possibility of funding, or getting someone to do it, you know, in a way that you would like to be treated yourself, I suppose. That's the most important part, I think - slowly move into a position where you can pay. Already asking the question is an amazing start.
LAURA BREWIS [00:26:46] Yeah. I mean, I think what you say is really hard. You know, when you are not paid yourself either well enough, or at all, to do the thing you do, then how can you pay someone else to do another thing? It's a cyclical thing that reinforces itself. But I think what you say is really true about awareness. So if you're in that position, you're not exploiting someone if they do something for free, providing you're honest with them. But then, if you have the ability to do it, then you need to pay them, or recognise that. And I think we all have a responsibility to do that, and for that to sort of filter down, I suppose. But it's really, really hard. You know, we're in a chronically underfunded industry. So it's a really difficult one.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:27:34] There is a time and a moment for asking people to do stuff. Because, like, we (THE PANEL) are all paid, in a paid job. Part of our job is to have exposure, and to talk about the things we do, and to talk to people about why we do it; which is a very different situation from when you have to be paid hour by hour for the work you produce, and you don't get paid if you take a holiday, you don't have sick leave, you don't have all these kind of things. It's a very different situation. So, yeah.
JAY SYKES [00:28:00] Also, just to say, the person who just asked that question there is called Kelsey Lynn Mayo. Her studio over in Newcastle, called Tuna Mayo Studios is absolutely gorgeous. And that's something that Kelsey has been building up and building up, and finally, you've got your own space. So well done for that.
POSY JOWETT [00:28:16] Yay, well done.
KELSEY LYNN MAYO [00:28:16] Thank you.
AUDIENCE [00:28:17] (APPLAUSE)
JAY SYKES [00:28:20] We have two more questions, one from Posy Jowett, and one from Mietek Padowicz, and then if anyone else has any more, then let's keep going. But, Posy.J
POSY JOWETT [00:28:28] Really, in response to your question, Kelsey, there's something, isn't there, to do is making the case for arts and culture? And we know we're all chronically underfunded in this particular sector, and the creative industries. And there's very well-meaning people in the creative industries that, of course, would love to pay others for their work, as is appropriate. But it can't just stay within this industry, can it? And this sector. And it has to be something about using spaces in the city centre, say, for example, where you can demonstrate the effectiveness and the cost effectiveness of arts and culture in the city, and the benefits of that. You kind of have to attribute a bit of financial value to it, don't you? If you want the money to be moving in in our sector in the way that we hope it can be?
LAURA BREWIS [00:29:15] Absolutely. I think there's something about advocating and making the case outward to government, and councils, and all of those things, about.. Why these things are valuable in a city, why they have economic value, you know, like around bringing people into a city centre, and people might go for a drink afterwards. And, you know, like actually playing that game and ascribing economic value to bringing people into a city, and what cultural activity can do for a city. And I do think we've got to do that - which we may think is sad, but we've got to talk in those terms, I think, sometimes.
SOUNDS [00:29:50] (IDENT).
JAY SYKES [00:29:50] Just given the microphone, Sharon Watson, an artist based in Sunderland, asks a question about arts, heritage and mental health to the panel at Mackie's Corner.
SHARON WATSON [00:30:04] Broadly looking at heritage, if we can get the health back into the buildings, but also link in to how arts can improve the health of everybody in the nation to be involved in arts; whether it's participating in creating art, or whether it's to just view art, or to listen to art. [Art] enriches people's lives to such an extent, but we need those buildings as well. And I think a lot of the older buildings have been neglected and forgotten about. And if we can breathe life into them together, everybody is going to benefit.
SARAH CARR [00:30:38] That's a great line, isn't it, for the [Sunderland] Heritage Action Zone?
LAURA BREWIS [00:30:41] Yeah. Make it happen.
SARAH CARR [00:30:41] (CHUCKLE) Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with everything you've said, actually. You know, that's kind of part of what we're doing, really, is to bring those buildings back in use. And, yeah, we recognise that that has an impact on people's health and wellbeing. There's actually some research which has been commissioned to look at that specifically, actually, and how people respond to their built environment, actually, and the changes that are happening around them. So hopefully change that can happen over the next few years, they're going to be, you know, really quite dramatic. Particularly around this junction here, I think you'll see real change.
JAY SYKES [00:31:13] I am so excited to see the Elephant Tea Rooms being redeveloped, as we've been talking about, the library space.
SARAH CARR [00:31:21] The local studies library, yeah.
LAURA BREWIS [00:31:22] It's the Local Studies section, yeah.
JAY SYKES [00:31:23] Local Studies Library, fabulous.
SARAH CARR [00:31:24] Yeah.
JAY SYKES [00:31:24] Also, there's another project that I know is emerging - the Living Arts Hub..
LAURA BREWIS [00:31:28] Yes.
JAY SYKES [00:31:28] Which is a collective people hoping to reform a space down the other end of Sunniside, ooh, that way.
AUDIENCE [00:31:34] (CHUCKLES).
JAY SYKES [00:31:37] ..Into a living space, as well as an arts space - which I know has been successful in many European countries as well as other cities.
LAURA BREWIS [00:31:45] So that's around creating both affordable housing, so social housing, where artists specifically, in this instance, but also people, can live, but also practice their artistic work. So, it would have workspaces and stuff like that. The idea has been floated at the moment around the Nile Street area, with Back on the Map and Create Streets. But it's a really, really interesting idea that also the [Sunderland City] Council are really behind, because it's around bringing people back into the city centre, which is a thing. I think there's some mad statistic about "only a thousand people live in a city centre" or something like that, which obviously has a huge impact on why the streets are really quiet on a night, and why people don't go out and have meals, and things like that. So there's a big drive to get more people living back in the city centre, which will hopefully make it a more vibrant, safe, interesting place to be past 5 o'clock when everyone goes home, and there's that feeling that the city kind of just shuts down. There is a real drive for that, and I think that has to be a really good idea (CHUCKLE) - to just bring people back, and families, and humans back into the city centre to, you know, like, animate the space, and be in the bars and be in the shops and all of that kind of stuff. So there needs to be sort of reverse of that sort of tide that's recently happened.
JAY SYKES [00:33:10] I was chatting with John Green, one of the Managers at the Bridges Shopping Centre recently, about how they've been redeveloping their space and using their shops, not just as commercial units, but also as Frederick Street Gallery, for instance, and also the quiet space that they have now and the ping pong room... There's all of these new ways that I think people are trying to take advantage of their existing spaces that aren't being utilised, because of the lack of the demand for shopping in a location anymore. So there's clearly a lot of strategy being put into the ways that buildings are being reused and redeveloped.
SARAH CARR [00:33:45] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the high street's changed, we've just got of respond to that, really. And it's not kind of traditional uses of kind of retail. And Fawcett Street used to be residential before it was retail, you know? It was kind of houses with gardens, in the 18th and 19th century. So I guess it's kind of going full circle, really. (CHUCKLE)
LAURA BREWIS [00:33:59] Yeah.
SARAH CARR [00:34:01] We're kind of going but to that kind of, you know, trying to get people back into the centre again.
LAURA BREWIS [00:34:04] Yeah.
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:34:05] As a young person who absolutely loves the idea of bringing people back into the city centre, it is extraordinary expensive to live in the city centre. And for someone who wants to move out, for someone who wants to become more involved in the city, getting a good job in the city is extraordinary hard. And I've got a bachelor's degree in psychology, in a science, you know? And I still can't find a decent job. Never mind to move out, never mind to live in the city. So, I mean, how do you propose sort of making living in the city more accessible?
LAURA BREWIS [00:34:38] Well, I think that's one of the really, really interesting things about this Living Arts Hub that's been proposed, because it is around social housing. It's not about having to a buy a house, it's not about having to get a loan to be a first time buyer or anything like that, it's actually about proper social housing. That's been sort of phased out, basically, of all places. So, there is a recognition that that needs to happen to keep young people in the city, and to make city centres vibrant again. But I think, like with all things, the tide turned away from that, and now it's perhaps turning back, hopefully? And I think this proposed scheme is one of a couple on the cards for the city centre. So hopefully (I don't have a housing brief, I don't know). But hopefully this is a thing that is starting to be recognised by councils, and those people that have the influence to do that kind of stuff.
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:35:36] That does sound really, really good.
LAURA BREWIS [00:35:39] Yeah.
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:35:40] Because I don't want to move out..
LAURA BREWIS [00:35:42] Of course.
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:35:42] ..To someone on the outside of Sunderland. I want to live somewhere where I can see people, where I can see the arts, where if it is being more involved in the city centre, I want to be here when it is here.
LAURA BREWIS [00:35:53] And I think that's a weird sort of paradox which has existed over the last years, which is people saying that they're really invested in the city centre and they want it to be thriving, but also pricing people out of the city centre at the same time. And I think there's a recognition of that, and hopefully that, yeah, yeah, that tide will start to turn because, yeah, without people being able to live here and exist here and participate in all of this stuff that is happening, hopefully starting to happen, it's a dead end, it's not going to work. Especially in somewhere like Sunderland, which has a lot of challenges. Let's all hope (LAUGHS) is what I'd say.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:36:29] Fingers crossed. But yeah, it's interesting Back on the Map is doing this, right. So they are a social housing, yeah.
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:36:35] Right, okay.
JAY SYKES [00:36:37] And I love that, you know, we're getting together here on ArtyParti to have conversations like this, and ask these important questions that need to be addressed. There's also groups like the Artists’ Union that meet regularly..
LAURA BREWIS [00:36:46] Mmhmm, yeah.
JAY SYKES [00:36:46] .. In the other Pop Recs building, where it's about trying to change things like this. So, I think these conversations need to keep happening.
LAURA BREWIS [00:36:54] But I think this definitely sitting around activism, and being visible, and saying these things out loud, and being together to make these cases. Because without that, nobody is going to hear it.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:37:06] But also making these matches happen, right? Because then Back on the Map it sort of like interested to organise this and to do this, but they struggle to find the artists who are interested to be involved, whereas there are for sure also loads of artists saying "there is nowhere for me to live". So it's like where does this come together?
LAURA BREWIS [00:37:23] It's like, yeah, the brokerage of that, yeah.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:37:23] Where is the space where this can...
SARAH CARR [00:37:24] Is that you? (TO LAURA)
LAURA BREWIS [00:37:26] I think that's me again.
AUDIENCE [00:37:26] (LAUGHTER).
SARAH CARR [00:37:26] (LAUGHS)
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:37:26] I do actually have one more question. I'm only here because my parents are artists, and happen to know people, And a lot of people I know who are young don't know about these things, and don't know about this space, and don't know about the art that's going on. Is there anything that can include a younger generation, in terms of making this sort of events and events like this more known?
LAURA BREWIS [00:37:52] I think one million percent, that is definitely needed. And I think one of the things that we're trying to do at Sunderland Culture is make that pathway from university to whatever comes next more visible and more obvious as to what the pathways [are], because we totally acknowledge that there are loads and loads of creative graduates that come out of this University [of Sunderland], and loads of loads of graduates that aren't creative, but who want to stay in the city centre and make their living here, who have to leave because they feel like there's more opportunities elsewhere. And I think part of what we really, really need to do is make that more obvious, and easier, and more affordable, and all of those things. So I think that is definitely a recognition that we need to address that kind of.. We need to lose less people, basically. (LAUGHS)
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:38:45] Yeah, definitely.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:38:47] But it starts younger already. So the work you (LAURA) are doing with We Make Culture, with Young Musicians, and the work Pop Recs is doing around is...
LAURA BREWIS [00:38:53] A hundred percent, yeah.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:38:54] I think it's really important that these kind of spaces exist, and that even when you're like 14, you feel like there is a space you can go, and music or arts or any other creative way of approaching life, let's say, it's kind of helpful for people to engage in it. You know, if you have to go to Sunderland Mind or to Washington Mind, it's kind of like a big step. But if you can go to Pop Recs, and then you can get into touch with people who are also talking about mental health, or it just makes a step easier. So I think it's really important that these things are connected up, and we all work together, but we also recognise the work that is already happening.
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:39:27] Yeah.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:39:27] Because there is a lot, and a lot of passion is being put into this.
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:39:32] I think it would be helpful if these of events, where maybe.. Not beforehand, because I know this is very limited spacing, maybe like afterwards.. Explain that these talks are happening, so that the young generation know that these sort of issues are being talked about.
LAURA BREWIS [00:39:46] It's totally that visibility thing again, isn't it?
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:39:48] Yeah.
LAURA BREWIS [00:39:49] It's that kind of self-perpetuating thing that people don't see it, so they feel like it's not happening.
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:39:54] Yeah.
LAURA BREWIS [00:39:54] Which isn't necessarily right. But if we don't talk about it, and if we haven't got ways of promoting it, and we haven't got ways of sort of celebrating it, it becomes invisible.
ROBERTA GLOVER [00:40:05] Yeah.
LAURA BREWIS [00:40:05] So I think it's all about also raising the profile of that, and being in the city centre in a space like Mackie's Corner is a part of that.
LAURA BREWIS [00:40:12] Yeah. But there's loads more work to do.
SOUNDS [00:40:14] (ARTYPARTI IDENT)
JAY SYKES [00:40:17] I'd love to ask a question directly of Sarah Carr, in regards to the [Sunderland] Heritage Action Zone, and your role within revitalising the city and the spaces that are being made, you know, to make the city centre as you're talking about, this space that is vibrant and is bustling again.
SARAH CARR [00:40:35] Yeah, I mean, it is, as I said, it's like a five year project, and I think it'll go beyond five years, and not everything's gonna be achieved within that five year period. But, I think it's kind of the start. Certainly the area that we've identified is one that we want to really kind of regenerate with more people using it, and that being evidence of economic regeneration as well. But that's not done just by use alone, it's a really big kind of partnership project. So we've got Sunderland Culture, Sunderland Heritage Forum, Churches Conservation Trust, who are redeveloping Holy Trinity Church, Tyne and Wear Building Preservation Trust, Historic England, obviously, a key funder. It's a project that is really driven by a really strong partnership, actually. So without those partners, we wouldn't be able to do everything that we want to achieve. But as I said, I think they'll be lots to do beyond that five years. (CHUCKLES).
LAURA BREWIS [00:41:27] It's a big project.
SARAH CARR [00:41:27] I don't think the answer is going to come by August 2022. (CHUCKLES)
JAY SYKES [00:41:31] It's another theme that emerges as part of ArtyParti, often it's...
SARAH CARR [00:41:35] Yeah.
JAY SYKES [00:41:35] And. It's the same for big players, as well as people... Collaborations and partnerships seem to be the lifeblood of creative work.
SARAH CARR [00:41:42] Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And certainly I mean, that Unlock Strand, I can't emphasise enough really how important that's been and just animating those spaces, and just bringing people into those spaces as well, into kind of historic buildings that would've just been empty until work started in terms of restoration. So building awareness, you know they're landmark buildings as well, that people have like really personal connections to. So just having that opportunity come back into those buildings has been..
LAURA BREWIS [00:42:06] Sometimes it's literally just walking to the door, isn't it?
SARAH CARR [00:42:08] Yeah, yeah.
LAURA BREWIS [00:42:09] You know, some of the stuff around, that we've seen in High Street [West], is literally about people coming through the door and telling us what their nana used to do in this space. Or that their great, great, great grandad used to run a hat shop there, or.. You know, like literally all of the stories. So there's something about literally just opening the door. That's very powerful, isn't it?
SARAH CARR [00:42:30] Yeah, and that's definitely triggered and sparked by stepping into a building.
LAURA BREWIS [00:42:33] Yeah.
SARAH CARR [00:42:34] Kind of, you know, stepping in and seeing a person that they can then talk to, and kind of share that story with.
LAURA BREWIS [00:42:38] So it's quite simple, isn't it?
SARAH CARR [00:42:39] Yeah.
LAURA BREWIS [00:42:40] It's not it's not necessarily really complicated, but...
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:42:41] Well that's the start, right? Because that's only the start.
LAURA BREWIS [00:42:45] That's the start, yeah, exactly.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:42:45] And I think it's also really interesting to see... So what we've been doing over the past week in High Street West is opening the space up for people to come in and have these stories, and talk to us about it. But also have the Rebel Women of Sunderland exhibition, so people come in for different reasons. So, you know, the people that come in for Heritage Open Days, you can imagine they're a particular kind of audience, right? Because most of the Heritage Open Days stuff is like, open...
LAURA BREWIS [00:43:07] During the day.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:43:08] During the day. And so, it's a lot of retired people, who are really super interested and have a lot of these stories. But you also want other people in. So, with the Rebel Women of Sunderland exhibition, we also got a lot of young people in, we got a lot of people just interested in the exhibition, but actually walking into the building. And then they're like..
LAURA BREWIS [00:43:23] Just being like "Oh!".
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:43:24] "Oh, this is actually.. I've never been in here, it is quite interesting." "Yeah, next door is the original Binns [Department Store]." "Oh, really? That's really interesting..." And, you know, so, you can start a conversation, and they start to sort of like know a bit more about the buildings, be more interested. And then you can ask, like, "how would you like to engage with this? Are you interested in more? Or do you..? Is it just like whatever you want? Is this fine? Do you want us to programme this space, or are you not really interested in stuff happening here?" And it starts a conversation, which I think is an important one to have with people in the neighbourhood, and the city, to come together and make this stuff happen, and know that there are places where you can make this stuff happen. So even though it was just for a week, it was very...
LAURA BREWIS [00:44:01] Yeah.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:44:01] It was very nice.
LAURA BREWIS [00:44:02] It's been a fun week.
JAY SYKES [00:44:03] We are, of course, recording here in Mackie's Corner for this. The name of this event, "A Legacy of Mackie's Corner", looking at what this space has accomplished and housed over the past year, and how this might influence the future. So the one last question that I'm wanting to pose, really to all three of you is... This is possibly the last time this building is going to be used in this form, is that right?
LAURA BREWIS [00:44:28] It is indeed the last time I will be used in this..
SARAH CARR [00:44:31] Momentous occasion.
JAY SYKES [00:44:33] So do you have any last words for the place?
SARAH CARR [00:44:37] I was gonna say, it's not final goodbye for me, because restoration work starts in the new year.
LAURA BREWIS [00:44:42] Yeah I was gonna say, it's only just started for Sarah!
SARAH CARR [00:44:43] Yay! (LAUGHS)
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:44:43] It's an ending for what was happening in the space, but it's also beginning.
SARAH CARR [00:44:46] Yeah.
LAURA BREWIS [00:44:46] It's a learning ex...
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:44:47] And it's moving on, and it's... yeah.
LAURA BREWIS [00:44:49] And it's a learning experience, isn't it? Of like what works, what doesn't work, what you can try, what spaces you need. It would be much better if this had a toilet, for example, etc..
AUDIENCE [00:44:59] (LAUGHS)
LAURA BREWIS [00:45:00] You know? I've learned a lot from this space. So it's like gathering the learning that's happened, having the legacy of all of those brilliant artists that have been through the place, and the things that it's kicked off.. And I was talking to Kath [Price] earlier who was talking about the amount of exhibitions that this has kind of triggered for her... The amount of things in the city that this has sort of catalysed... The Frederick Street Gallery, and Norfolk Street Arts, and all kinds of really interesting things, which would probably have happened without this happening, but maybe wouldn't have happened as quickly, or maybe there wouldn't have been that momentum built up. It's kind of gathering all of that stuff up, and about processes, which is quite boring, but about, like, how do we make it easier for artists to get into spaces like this in the future? You know, we've had really brilliant landlords in this particular instance, who've been like, just go on with what you want.
JAY SYKES [00:45:47] We should say thanks to Alex Kirtley, shouldn't we?
LAURA BREWIS [00:45:50] Yeah, the Kirtleys have been totally amazing in all of this, and have just really let us get on and do what we wanted. But also, this is now an example. So we can go other landlords like this, and go, "oh, actually, we've done it here, there's been no trouble, it's been really successful, we've had people through the building, it's made people see what this space could be used for." It's using is as an example, and around catalysing other people to do stuff. So it doesn't necessarily have to be any of those doing it, but it's about making stuff happen.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:46:17] Showing it's possible.
LAURA BREWIS [00:46:19] Showing it's possible.
SARAH CARR [00:46:19] And it's been a way of putting Mackie's [Corner] back on the map.
LAURA BREWIS [00:46:21] Yeah, absolutely.
SARAH CARR [00:46:21] And just creating that buzz around the building again. This would have been a real hub in its heyday, and it's just been great to see that again, actually.
LAURA BREWIS [00:46:29] Yeah. And I think lots of people will now be watching for what happens next.
SARAH CARR [00:46:32] Yeah.
LAURA BREWIS [00:46:33] You know, about the restoration.
SARAH CARR [00:46:34] Yeah, absolutely.
LAURA BREWIS [00:46:34] In a way that, probably, if that just happened without a year of activity in the building, it might have gone unnoticed, you know?
SARAH CARR [00:46:41] So I think that's a real kind of sense of like expectation and excitement, actually, about what's gonna come next.
LAURA BREWIS [00:46:45] Like, "oh what's gonna happen next?" Yeah, "what's gonna happen next in this space?"
SARAH CARR [00:46:45] So that's, yeah, thank you, that's been, you know, that's that's part of your contribution.
LAURA BREWIS [00:46:49] It's been amazing.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:46:51] It would be really amazing if like this amazing landlord would be interested, also, in maybe putting on some art exhibition once it's finished, so it doesn't stop here. I think that would be really nice to kind of like continue to support...
LAURA BREWIS [00:47:03] I don't want to speak for Alex, but I think it she'd be right up for just right. She's right into this kind of thing, so.
DR. LOES VELDPAUS [00:47:06] That would be great, yeah.
JAY SYKES [00:47:07] A legacy of Mackie's Corner!
AUDIENCE [00:47:10] (CHEERS AND CLAPPING).
SOUNDS [00:47:10] (THEME TUNE BY MUSELEON)
JAY SYKES [00:47:19] So thank you all so much for being here. But I'd also like to say a huge thank you to our three panellists on board ArtyParti today. Thank you to Sarah Carr from Sunderland Heritage Action Zone.
AUDIENCE [00:47:29] (CLAPPING).
JAY SYKES [00:47:29] Thank you to Laura Brewis from Sunderland Culture, and We Make Culture.
AUDIENCE [00:47:36] (CLAPPING).
JAY SYKES [00:47:36] Thank you to Dr. Loes Veldpaus, the Newcastle University School of Architecture, Planning and Landscape.
AUDIENCE [00:47:49] (CLAPPING).
SARAH CARR [00:47:49] (LAUGHS).
JAY SYKES [00:47:49] And thanks to the Arts Council England, and the National Lottery Heritage Fund, that provide us with support via the Unlock strand of Sunderland Culture's Great Place scheme.
AUDIENCE [00:47:58] (CLAPPING AND WHOOPING)
